Myrl Jeffcoat myrlj@jps.net

8 mars, 2005 20:27

Acupuncture: Can Needles Heal?
Hosted By: David Folk Thomas, Fox News Channel

Participants:
Ben Kligler, MD - Albert Einstein College of Medicine
William J. Kaplanidis, LAc, MTOM, MA, CRC - Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, New York City

Webcast Transcript:

Recorded Live: June 6 2000

DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Welcome to our webcast. I'm David Folk Thomas. You've heard the expression "being on pins and needles." Well, what about having pins and needles on you? That's right, we're talking about acupuncture today, and as you may know, that's the practice of sticking tiny little needles into the body. We're going to find out what it's all about. Joining me, two experts on the subject. To my left is Dr. Ben Kligler. He's the medical director of the New Beth Israel Center for Health and Healing in New York City. Sitting next to Dr. Kligler is William Kaplinidis. He is a licensed acupuncturist and department head of Allied Arts at the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine here in New York City. Thanks to both of you for joining us today.   Dr. Kligler, I'll start with you. What is acupuncture? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: Acupuncture is an art or a science that was developed in China over the last several thousand years and has now become quite popular in the West, as well, that is based on the use of needles inserted into the body as a means of unblocking or harmonizing the flow of chi, or energy, in the body, which forms the basis for both good health and ill health. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: William, add to what Dr. Kligler said. What's happening when you're getting needles stuck into you? What's this chi thing all about? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: There are a few different things going on. It is a science and an art. The "chi thing" is energy in your body, or life force, and there are different kinds of chi in the body, but the idea is that the needles are put in specific points to affect different systems in the body. For example, the Chinese look at the body a little bit differently than Western doctors. Where a Western doctor may look at the physiology of how the heart works, the Chinese give different jobs or functions to each of the organs. So there are jobs that they do in relation to each other, so the needles will help give the body signals to help the organs do their jobs better and in more harmony to bring you back to balance. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Does everybody have chi, and what form is that? Is it flowing through you? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: Everybody has it. If you don't have it, you're dead, for starters. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Can you measure it? Can you put it under a microscope? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: You can't see it. There have been a lot of studies done now at this point trying to determine what exactly it is, and are there ways to measure it? So they've tried to measure it as a magnetic field and as electricity, and as a whole plethora, a whole range of different kinds of understandable forces. I don't know if William would agree. I would say nobody has succeeded in figuring out how to measure it from a Western point of view. Now, Chinese doctors and acupuncture practitioners know very well how to measure it. They get trained in how to feel the chi in the different channels in the body. Some of this they do by feeling pulses, some of this they do by feeling elsewhere on the body, so they have a very effective way of measuring the chi, it's just not a way that is what we're using to thinking about from the point of view of Western science. So everybody's got it. When it gets stuck or blocked it causes problems, and that's where the acupuncturist comes in. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: I think what Ben said was very accurate. They're still trying to figure out exactly what the chi is, and they are looking at it through electrical currents as well as magnetic currents. I think as the technology gets more advanced they may be able to pinpoint it a little bit more. But they've already noticed that certain acupuncture points have a different electrical resistance than just an area just around it, for example, so they know there's something special about that point. Western science has mapped out currents in the body that are separate from the nervous system current, for example. Western science has gotten pieces of it and can explain parts of how it works, but they haven't gotten the whole picture yet from a Western, technological point of view. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Before we get into actually how it works and the actual sticking of the needles, you are an acupuncturist, licensed. How do you get licensed? Do you have to be a doctor? I believe it's becoming more mainstream in medicine, and maybe you can start with who practices it, how do you get licensed. Then, Dr. Kligler, you can address how it's being absorbed into mainstream medicine, but, William, first with you. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: It varies from state to state. Basically there are now programs, schools, where you can go and study acupuncture. Many of the schools also have herbal medicine programs that coincide with it. Some states require you to do both, where you'll have to study both the acupuncture and the herbs and you get a license as an Oriental medical doctor, while other states just license the acupuncture part and haven't recognized the herbal medicine. There's a national committee that oversees and accreditation bureaus that oversee all the schools, or most of them, and you take a national exam once you're done with your training. A licensed acupuncturist, for the most part, will have at least three years of training, over 3,000 hours of training, including didactic and clinical training. Medical doctors are able to take a 300-hour course and become certified in acupuncture. It really depends on the state. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Dr. Kligler, I could see a lot of people thinking, "Well, what's this? Sticking needles in me, I don't believe in that." How has mainstream medicine taken to acupuncture? What's the general view? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: I think that in most parts of the country, doctors in general are curious about acupuncture-- perhaps not incredibly knowledgeable yet, but skeptical as to why it would work or how it works, but willing to try it, willing to send their patients forward and see how it works, particularly for pain problems, for problems pertaining to nerve damage or carpal tunnel syndrome, pinched nerves, that kind of problem. I think that-- you could never say or even most-- but I think there are many, many doctors around the country now who are happily sending their patients for acupuncture treatments. I think people are a little slower to send people for treatment of non-pain related things, to send somebody for asthma or digestive problems, many of the things which acupuncture can be very effective for. I think the doctors are going to come around to that eventually, but I think many of them are still a little reluctant because not understanding how it works makes it hard for them to send. For the pain syndromes, I think, people feel a little more comfortable and confident that they know how it works. There are quite a few hospitals now that offer acupuncture either as part of a pain program or as part of a rehab service or for people who have had stroke or a wide variety of conditions. Even on an inpatient basis, there quite a few hospitals that are starting to offer this now.   DAVID FOLK THOMAS: William, I know people watching this now are on pins and needles waiting to find out actually what takes place. Let's take a first-time patient who has been recommended. Maybe they have a pinched nerve or some other problem, and they're coming to you for the first time. Take us through their treatment that you would administer. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: A first visit, just in general for me, might take an hour and a half to two hours. I'd have them fill out a medical intake form, very similar to the ones you might fill out when you go see a doctor, including a whole list of symptoms, which will help me get a picture of what's going on with the whole person, not just that one symptom that they're coming to me for. After I review the paperwork, I'll ask them a series of questions. Oftentimes the questions might have to do with things like their bowel movements or if they're sweating at night, things that they may not understand how it's related to the pain in my lower back, for example. But each point has many functions, so I'm trying to get a complete picture of the person to see what the cause of the problem is. Was it a car accident, or did they use up, for example, their kidney energy through stress and overworking, and now they have a weakness in their lower back, a physical weakness that's causing them to have pain? Once I would do the evaluation, I would have them lie down on the table and I'd continue my evaluation by palpating their pulse, which would give me more information; looking at their tongue, which is sort of a map of what's going on inside of the body; maybe palpating their abdomen to see if there are tender spots. Again, each part of the body is like a map giving you information of what's going on inside. The Chinese didn't take blood tests 3,000 years ago. They looked at your eyes, they looked at your tongue, things they could observe. Once I've formulated an initial diagnosis of what I think was going on, I would choose points on the body and, depending on where the points where, they may have to roll up their pants or roll up their sleeve, or maybe I would drape and they would take their pants off or something like that. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Do you do this on the first visit, then? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: Yeah. For myself I include the intake, the evaluation and the treatment in the first visit. Most practitioners do that. If it's a complicated case, a practitioner may opt to sit on it for a while, think about it, and then have them come back for the treatment. I would then explain to them what's going to happen. I also do visualization and relaxation techniques with those patients who are really, really nervous. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: So they can visualize that it will work and – WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: No, not necessarily about the acupuncture, but just helping them relax their body, visualizing their muscles relax.   DAVID FOLK THOMAS: So people get worried about the needle. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: Yeah. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Does it hurt? That's my next question. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: In America, I think as children we get injections, vaccinations, blood drawn, those needles are much thicker and they're hollow, so they actually tear your skin, and it's much more painful. An acupuncture needle is very thin, it's sterilized, and there is a range of gauges as far as the thinness, so some of them could be very hair-thin where you won't even feel it going in, and I've put in six needles in a patient, and they've asked, "So when are you going to put the first needle it?" and six have already been put in. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: How deep do you put them in? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: It depends on the area of the body. You could go in 0.1 cm to a half-inch to an inch to two or three inches, depending on the area of the body. For example, the buttocks you might go deeper, as opposed to on the chest area, where you wouldn't want to go inward. You might just go under the skin. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: How long do you leave them in, and what patterns? How do you know where you go? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS:  Depending on what the diagnosis is, you look at the different systems-- for example, the kidney energy, the liver energy-- their functions. What functions are not working properly? Which organs or which systems are being affected? Then you would choose your points based on that. You might use six points to ten points, depending, so anywhere from 12 needles or ten needles, depending on how many points you want to use, depending on the condition of the patient. Then they would lie there in a relaxed position. You would put the needles in the points, and they would stay there maybe for 15 or 20 minutes. During that time, you may leave the room, or I stay in the room and I do other things like acupressure and gentle touch therapy just to move the energy, and maybe put on some nice music and dim the lights. Usually the effect is very quick in terms of being very relaxed and comfortable while you're lying there. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Do people notice instantaneous results, or is it something that builds over a period of time? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: It really varies on the condition. I've had situations where someone came in with an acute pain, like a back pain or a muscle spasm, and one treatment, they were able to stand up straight, the spasm was gone, and then the follow-up treatment, it was completely gone, the tightness, et cetera. DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: I would say usually people need more than one treatment. That's one, I think, common misconception about acupuncture, that you're going to go once and you're going to be magically cured. I mean, there are a lot of people, especially for acute problems, who will get a lot of benefit after the first time, but people should really expect probably that they're going two, three, four times, typically. WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: Depending on the situation, I would tell my patients to expect maybe three or four visits just to see if there's any change in the condition and then take it from there. Sometimes people may need to come for a series of treatments over several months, sometimes longer, depending on how chronic and what state their body is in. DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: And then some people may just come for a shorter period of time. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Very quickly, is there any blood involved? Are people bleeding when you stick these things in them? WILLIAM KAPLINIDIS: Very rarely do you get blood after you needle someone. Occasionally, you might hit a small capillary and there's a little dot of blood, and it's gone. You just wipe it off. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Dr. Kligler, if they're watching this and they say, "Maybe this is for me," how should they go about finding an acupuncturist? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: It depends somewhat on where they are. If they're in a big city, for example, in New York, you can certainly call one of the acupuncture training schools. I think in any of these disciplines if you are in a community that's a little bit small, a lot of it has to do with reputation, so they should ask around. Their doctor might know somebody, they might not, but their friends might have been to someone, and reputation is a very important part of finding somebody good. Once you find somebody who is recommended, you look at their credentials, you see that they've trained in one of the accredited schools and that they've passed the national board exam, and then you know you're probably in good hands. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Are there unlicensed acupuncturists out there? DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: There's a big variation from state to state. Actually, the rules regarding doctors doing acupuncture, physicians, are a lot more lax than the rules regarding acupuncturists doing acupuncture. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: You kind of think, "Oh, you've already gone to med school." DR. BENJAMIN KLIGLER: Yeah, "You're a doctor, so you know how to do it," which is not actually true. I mean, there are good physician training programs in acupuncture. I consider myself competent, although not as skilled as a licensed acupuncturist who has done much more training. There are states where you can just go ahead and do acupuncture as a doctor with no training and you're within the parameters of your license, so people need to know in their state what the rules are regarding physician acupuncture. Regarding licensed acupuncturists, if you go for somebody who has passed the national board exam, that's at least a minimum standard that you can trust. You can't underestimate how important reputation is, so asking around in your community, finding out who people have been to, how they felt they were treated, what kind of results they got, that's really good information, and that's where you have to start. Then you can look at somebody's credentials. DAVID FOLK THOMAS: That's all the time we have now. I want to thank both of you, Dr. Ben Kligler and William Kaplinidis, licensed acupuncturist, for coming by and telling us all about what it means to have little needles stuck in you. Acupuncture has been our topic. Thanks for joining us on this webcast. I'm David Folk Thomas.